351 Cleveland Advice

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Jody_VA
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:49

Re: 351 Cleveland Advice

Post by Jody_VA » Thu 23 Mar 2017, 20:57

ZA Perana wrote:With due respect 500 wheel kw in a Capri will result in a car un driveable on the street. If I were you I would do the following (consider that I hate Lexus conversions).
True. I reached at 500kw. No offence taken.
Upon reconsideration, 500rwkw will be difficult to put down without serious suspension mods, expensive and not as reliable.
347 stroker motor.
Red line 6500 rpm
Give or take around 300kW.
Is that rwKw? How would you place durability and estimated cost to build?
Remember the Capri is very light, just over a ton in weight so you don't need mega power and with modest power you have a good power to weight ratio.
My only concern yes with the 351 is weight for the capri. The Lexus however is only 10kg heavier than an essex v6.
Sure, you can dump the Lexus motor in there for around R35k but really who is going to want to buy the car one day?

At least if you keep it Ford the car has some intrinsic worth, more so if its a usable road car.
I acknowledge what you're saying ZA, thanks for the input. Once again you have made very valid points and I appreciate the feedback. I will consider this.

It will be a purely race car, it has no papers.

There is truly value in period an brand correct restoration, my Fairlane for e.g. has its matching number 289. I wont change that engine.

In a road car the value would be more without any doubt. For this application the value, to me, is in the performance out-put, durability for continuous hard work and cost factor per Kw. If I can get this right, I wont plan on selling it anytime soon ZA.

Jody_VA
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Joined: Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:49

Re: 351 Cleveland Advice

Post by Jody_VA » Thu 23 Mar 2017, 21:08

Waterhond wrote:Hi Jody,

I love your way of thinking.

Have you considered the GM LS-series, especially the cheaper 5.3 that people are making serious horsepower with, even with stock internals.

Pieter
Thanks Pieter :lol:

My father always says this quote "Ive found that too much power is just about enough for me".

500rwkw is too much though, at least for this application i.e. track and possible hill climb occasional drag sets :mrgreen:

Thanks Pieter I will check the prices of the different LS options :)
Last edited by Jody_VA on Thu 23 Mar 2017, 22:14, edited 1 time in total.

Jody_VA
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:49

Re: 351 Cleveland Advice

Post by Jody_VA » Thu 23 Mar 2017, 21:17

RASSIE wrote:Fit a 302W and stop playing. They got no brakes from build. My experience.
Rassie.
Thanks for the reply Rassie. Duly noted.

What setup would you go for on a race car and still be strong?

Jody_VA
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:49

Re: 351 Cleveland Advice

Post by Jody_VA » Thu 23 Mar 2017, 22:13

IndianaJones wrote:Hi Jody

Just my 2c. I’ve refrained from commenting on your thread, in the hopes that one of our actual engine builders might chip in.

Without wanting to sound pessimistic, there are very few members on the forum that have actual experience with stroker small block Fords or boosting them, and unfortunately fewer, which are actively participating. Best would be for you to have an actual telephone conversation with the known engine builders, if you can not visit them in person, which would be best. Unfortunately, I know of no engine builders in the Eastern Cape. Try to get hold of Warren (Stealth GT), or Willie Nel, or Melvin Strydom in Cape Town or member Mark (Bigblock496) in Gauteng, on this forum, and pick their brains. Also in Cape Town, talk to Alvin Chetty, he has lots of Ford V8 experience and a drag race fox body Mustang, or Robbie(ROBBINATOR), or Theron (Bird 455) about how much power and what other mods, would actually be needed, to make a 12sec pass with a Capri. I don’t think you need 500rwkW to run a 12sec pass, at the coast at least. Don’t be surprised if the guys don’t answer their PM’s. If you can not find their contacts, ask, someone on here will be able to assist.
Thanks for your reply Indiana.

I will look up some of these guys. I have been speaking to Stealth (Warren). However, I don't yet have a clear goal or budget which seems to be the biggest contributor.

I will be in cape town from this Saturday until Tuesday. Perhaps I can organise to have a chat with them in person as you suggest.

Perhaps if anyone has contact details of those guys in Cape Town I can give them a ring to organise? :)

I agree with what you and ZA have reiterated. 500kw is a reach. I suppose I've done too much reading in this case and I dont intend on sounding like a keyboard racer.
Cleveland’s are generally regarded as being more expensive to build, because the parts are slightly more scares and more expensive. On a performance build I don’t there is a big difference in power output between a Cleveland and a Windsor, if any. A T5 would not hold behind 500kW. 12sec is doable with a different manual gearbox, but as been stated, a really fast drag car is better off with an automatic.
Ive been told this by many engine builders that the Cleveland is worthwhile to build if you put in the money. This convinced me to give it a try but I wanted to make sure of figures first, financial and performance. But, as you have said.. in terms of 40-50 year old technology I tend to agree that the difference if any would be minimal once modified with more modernized aftermarket parts. From what Ive read some aluminium heads flow better cfm and port velocity than a set of cast 4v.

I thought of using the Toploader 4-spd off the Fairlane, as well as the cressida box. I would prefer manual for a more all-round car than a specified drag car. I would like to hit 12s without a drag specific suspension and box of possible, because Id like to do track days as well. Once again points to 500kw being overkill :roll:
Some questions arise though, what is your budget for the engine build? Because it could very well be the deciding factor in which engine you use.
Not yet specified, but looking at what has been said so far and after having spoken to some parts stores. If i go american I will seriously have to reconsider by power expectations.
And, have you actually driven a 500kW car for an extended period? A 500kW road car, or 500kW show car, and a 500kw race car are completely different animals. Using a 15% power loss factor, 500rwkW translate to approx 590 fwkW, that is almost 800hp at the crank. With an unlimited budget, it surely is achievable, but I don’t think it is a realistic goal. If you lower your hp goal, you’ll be able to build an engine, which suits a greater variety of applications. Also remember that everything isn’t about horsepower, small-block V8’s make a lot more torque than say a 1UZ, and a high torque engine, with the correct gearing, can be just as quick as a high horsepower car.
More like experience with half the amount. I understand that a broader torque curve is better. I think the 500kw is the sore thumb though, I cant call it a typo :lol: maybe a judgement error for my application and my budget. Bear in mind I was reading many american articles referring to HP at the time :mrgreen:
If you are willing to crossdress, the 5.3 LS Waterhond suggests is a good option, but just as a powerplant, the cheapest way to your initial criteria, would be a big turbo 1JZ or 2JZ. The Ford alternative, is off course the Falcon six, but I don’t think they rev as high, and to achieve 500kW would probably also need some internal reinforcements. I think Rocket 88, sells the 5.3 LS with 4x2 autobox for R40k…
The site says the 5.3 LMG?
I will have a look at its reviews they say 320 hp and has 458nm of torque. R39,900.

My only concern would be the aftermarket support in terms of modification for future. It has great torque but I would prefer a more revvy engine for racing use. Perhaps a wilder cam. I will have a look at costs at the local parts stores.
To rebuild a SBF is one thing, but to build a SBF with components that could either handle sustained boost or produce 500rwkW is going to be on another price level. Most parts would need to be specially imported. Unless perhaps turbo’ed, I don’t see you reaching 800hp, with cast iron heads, but I’m no expert. Currently the dollar exchange rate isn’t as bad as it has been, but still hefty.
I tend to agree. Initially the thought was 0.5-0.8 boost for the 351C with stock internals, which is estimated at around 250-300kw. However a few things have discouraged me 1. The weight of the 351c (250kg) in a Capri shell. 2. The cost of an EFI alone or blow through carb (R19,000-26,000), 3. The subsequent cost of the turbo install. Although we may be able to modify another throttle body to fit with a Spitronics perhaps, it may then become complicated and is not a guarantee it will work, or at least as I expect.

The turbo part itself is not the problem, it is the lack of familiarity with the engines I'm considering.
If your focus shifts more to the 7000rpm goal, then I think a 289 or 302 unstroked or even destroked will more easily spin to that rpms, than a 351. Also, turbo’ed cars don’t have the sound, of the cars in the links you posted.
I was considering 289 internals in a 302 block for revvability.
The cost I would have to work out but im guessing: 10k for the 302 engine, around 15k for hypereutectic pistons perhaps a bit more for forged, 20k for the heads, 15k for the valvetrain, 5k for the cam and followers, another 5k for accesories, 5k radiator and fan=around 75k, If i bought it piece by piece I could do that over time.

I understand you're sentiments with a turboed car it tends to muffle exhaust sound but this car with a turbo would run no silencers so it will actually act as I silencer should i turbo. However, N/A always has those sweeter revs and lumpy idle.

You're right with this below..
Personally I think you should just build a not-too-extravagant small block Ford for now, finish the car, suspension, etc, and drive it. Then you’ll see what it needs, build up another engine as you have time, when and if you get bored with the power. There is much more joy in having a reliable car and actually using the car, than saving up for exotic speed parts and a car on jack stands. But whatever you do, please keep us updated, everyone here enjoys a good build thread.
I agree. Its what ZA said right in the beginning :mrgreen: ofcourse boys will be boys wanting more power.

This still leaves me with my dilemma though of cost vs power vs durability. However, I think I forgot to keep the bigger build in mind and I focused too much on the engine alone. Maybe if I was just building an engine but I'm building an entire car so as you say there are other costs involved, but since the engine will form the heart of my build Im focusing on it first so I know where Im going..

I need to consider now though what to do about the engine and I would like to speak to the guys you mentioned. If anyone has any suggestions to post I am still open to ideas.. :D

Thanks for the response Indiana! I will definitely keep posting the build :mrgreen:

Jody_VA
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Joined: Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:49

Re: 351 Cleveland Advice

Post by Jody_VA » Thu 23 Mar 2017, 22:56

To summarise the suggested options

1. Ford 347w Stroker
2. Ford 302w (standard stroke or destroked for rebuild)

as well as EFI options on the market

3. Ford 5.0 efi
4. Chevrolet 5.3 LMG (R39,900)
5. Lexus 1uz (non-vvti) (R15,900)

Thanks guys for the advice, I appreciate it.

I understand the difficulty in what im asking is that power costs money, but I would like to not waste money as well. Also, i wouldnt like to spend a lot and have a low powered or unreliable build.

After Ive spoken to some guys with regards to:
1. Power output and potential for future tuning
2. Cost
3. Durability
4. weight

of each the above-mentioned powerplants

I think it will make it easier to decide :)

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RASSIE
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Re: 351 Cleveland Advice

Post by RASSIE » Sat 25 Mar 2017, 09:04

First get in a standard manual Capri Perana and clean pants spare, before you think of 500hp. :D
Cleveland run bearings if you rev. high because the bearings is too wide.
Rassie.
http://www.rassiesauto.co.za/
“Cowboys do not ride donkeys”
“I will die driving a V8”

Jody_VA
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Joined: Fri 25 Nov 2016, 10:49

Re: 351 Cleveland Advice

Post by Jody_VA » Sun 26 Mar 2017, 10:00

RASSIE wrote:First get in a standard manual Capri Perana and clean pants spare, before you think of 500hp. :D
Cleveland run bearings if you rev. high because the bearings is too wide.
Rassie.
Thanks Rassie

I will see what I can organise while I am here in Cape Town :D

Jody_VA
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Re: 351 Cleveland Advice

Post by Jody_VA » Sun 26 Mar 2017, 10:10

I take it that the general consensus is that the 351C is too much weight in a capri intended for mostly track use and occasional drag strip?

How is the weight of a 302 for track use?

Listed weights:
Essex v6 - 170kg
Lexus v8 - 180kg
Ford 302 - 210kg
351c - 250kg

Since handling will be a significant factor of this build. I will first look at the weight distribution and then consider power gains. As ZA said, which I agree with less weight is ultimately better use of power available.

Any advice on 302 vs v6 handling in a Capri?

Note that the lexus is similar weight to a v6

Regards

brennan67
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Re: 351 Cleveland Advice

Post by brennan67 » Sun 21 May 2017, 17:20

Hi Jody

Pleased to meet you.. not a engine builder at all myself but a Ford guy..

I dont see anyone has asked, but whats your budget for the motor? I think thats a key starting point. The setup you were initially explaining is probably going to cost you a ridiculous amount of money for the car you want to put it in. Dont forget power is one thing you also need to make it turn and stop which is another cost area all on its own.

American V8's with pushrod technology dont like to rev high normally out the box, whilst they can do as explained if thats your goal its going to cost you. I think you better off building a 300-400hp small block Windsor for that car. Not sure if a 351W would fit in there but I think it might.. That would be a good starting point. Then if you do have a big budget you could build a 427 stroker. That would put a smile on your face in that little car...

Otherwise a 302 or 347 stroker would be your 2nd best bet. Supercharging is a option which will add +30% more HP, or a real bang for the buck would be NOS if drag racing is your goal.

But as I say it all starts with what you wanting to spend.

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ZA Perana
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Re: 351 Cleveland Advice

Post by ZA Perana » Sun 21 May 2017, 18:19

Jody_VA wrote:I take it that the general consensus is that the 351C is too much weight in a capri intended for mostly track use and occasional drag strip?

How is the weight of a 302 for track use?

Listed weights:
Essex v6 - 170kg
Lexus v8 - 180kg
Ford 302 - 210kg
351c - 250kg

Since handling will be a significant factor of this build. I will first look at the weight distribution and then consider power gains. As ZA said, which I agree with less weight is ultimately better use of power available.

Any advice on 302 vs v6 handling in a Capri?

Note that the lexus is similar weight to a v6

Regards
Handling with the V8 isn't an issue there are ways to make it handle, upgraded springs and shocks being the best way but you need a good diff. The standard centre on the Capri is much smaller than the 9 inch centre so fitting one isn't as easy as some say, unless you want the car to ride high at the back and low at the front, which to me looks a bit silly. I can be integrated better though if you are prepared to do some shaping of the sheet metal around the diff.

Also bear in mind wide front tyres will make the steering very heavy at low speed.

The 302W isn't massively heavier than the V6. I would avoid the Cleveland because space in the bay is very tight and I just think with an auto box there would be too much weight on the front of the car.
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