IndianaJones wrote:Hi Jody
Just my 2c. I’ve refrained from commenting on your thread, in the hopes that one of our actual engine builders might chip in.
Without wanting to sound pessimistic, there are very few members on the forum that have actual experience with stroker small block Fords or boosting them, and unfortunately fewer, which are actively participating. Best would be for you to have an actual telephone conversation with the known engine builders, if you can not visit them in person, which would be best. Unfortunately, I know of no engine builders in the Eastern Cape. Try to get hold of Warren (Stealth GT), or Willie Nel, or Melvin Strydom in Cape Town or member Mark (Bigblock496) in Gauteng, on this forum, and pick their brains. Also in Cape Town, talk to Alvin Chetty, he has lots of Ford V8 experience and a drag race fox body Mustang, or Robbie(ROBBINATOR), or Theron (Bird 455) about how much power and what other mods, would actually be needed, to make a 12sec pass with a Capri. I don’t think you need 500rwkW to run a 12sec pass, at the coast at least. Don’t be surprised if the guys don’t answer their PM’s. If you can not find their contacts, ask, someone on here will be able to assist.
Thanks for your reply Indiana.
I will look up some of these guys. I have been speaking to Stealth (Warren). However, I don't yet have a clear goal or budget which seems to be the biggest contributor.
I will be in cape town from this Saturday until Tuesday. Perhaps I can organise to have a chat with them in person as you suggest.
Perhaps if anyone has contact details of those guys in Cape Town I can give them a ring to organise?
I agree with what you and ZA have reiterated. 500kw is a reach. I suppose I've done too much reading in this case and I dont intend on sounding like a keyboard racer.
Cleveland’s are generally regarded as being more expensive to build, because the parts are slightly more scares and more expensive. On a performance build I don’t there is a big difference in power output between a Cleveland and a Windsor, if any. A T5 would not hold behind 500kW. 12sec is doable with a different manual gearbox, but as been stated, a really fast drag car is better off with an automatic.
Ive been told this by many engine builders that the Cleveland is worthwhile to build if you put in the money. This convinced me to give it a try but I wanted to make sure of figures first, financial and performance. But, as you have said.. in terms of 40-50 year old technology I tend to agree that the difference if any would be minimal once modified with more modernized aftermarket parts. From what Ive read some aluminium heads flow better cfm and port velocity than a set of cast 4v.
I thought of using the Toploader 4-spd off the Fairlane, as well as the cressida box. I would prefer manual for a more all-round car than a specified drag car. I would like to hit 12s without a drag specific suspension and box of possible, because Id like to do track days as well. Once again points to 500kw being overkill
Some questions arise though, what is your budget for the engine build? Because it could very well be the deciding factor in which engine you use.
Not yet specified, but looking at what has been said so far and after having spoken to some parts stores. If i go american I will seriously have to reconsider by power expectations.
And, have you actually driven a 500kW car for an extended period? A 500kW road car, or 500kW show car, and a 500kw race car are completely different animals. Using a 15% power loss factor, 500rwkW translate to approx 590 fwkW, that is almost 800hp at the crank. With an unlimited budget, it surely is achievable, but I don’t think it is a realistic goal. If you lower your hp goal, you’ll be able to build an engine, which suits a greater variety of applications. Also remember that everything isn’t about horsepower, small-block V8’s make a lot more torque than say a 1UZ, and a high torque engine, with the correct gearing, can be just as quick as a high horsepower car.
More like experience with half the amount. I understand that a broader torque curve is better. I think the 500kw is the sore thumb though, I cant call it a typo
maybe a judgement error for my application and my budget. Bear in mind I was reading many american articles referring to HP at the time
If you are willing to crossdress, the 5.3 LS Waterhond suggests is a good option, but just as a powerplant, the cheapest way to your initial criteria, would be a big turbo 1JZ or 2JZ. The Ford alternative, is off course the Falcon six, but I don’t think they rev as high, and to achieve 500kW would probably also need some internal reinforcements. I think Rocket 88, sells the 5.3 LS with 4x2 autobox for R40k…
The site says the 5.3 LMG?
I will have a look at its reviews they say 320 hp and has 458nm of torque. R39,900.
My only concern would be the aftermarket support in terms of modification for future. It has great torque but I would prefer a more revvy engine for racing use. Perhaps a wilder cam. I will have a look at costs at the local parts stores.
To rebuild a SBF is one thing, but to build a SBF with components that could either handle sustained boost or produce 500rwkW is going to be on another price level. Most parts would need to be specially imported. Unless perhaps turbo’ed, I don’t see you reaching 800hp, with cast iron heads, but I’m no expert. Currently the dollar exchange rate isn’t as bad as it has been, but still hefty.
I tend to agree. Initially the thought was 0.5-0.8 boost for the 351C with stock internals, which is estimated at around 250-300kw. However a few things have discouraged me 1. The weight of the 351c (250kg) in a Capri shell. 2. The cost of an EFI alone or blow through carb (R19,000-26,000), 3. The subsequent cost of the turbo install. Although we may be able to modify another throttle body to fit with a Spitronics perhaps, it may then become complicated and is not a guarantee it will work, or at least as I expect.
The turbo part itself is not the problem, it is the lack of familiarity with the engines I'm considering.
If your focus shifts more to the 7000rpm goal, then I think a 289 or 302 unstroked or even destroked will more easily spin to that rpms, than a 351. Also, turbo’ed cars don’t have the sound, of the cars in the links you posted.
I was considering 289 internals in a 302 block for revvability.
The cost I would have to work out but im guessing: 10k for the 302 engine, around 15k for hypereutectic pistons perhaps a bit more for forged, 20k for the heads, 15k for the valvetrain, 5k for the cam and followers, another 5k for accesories, 5k radiator and fan=around 75k, If i bought it piece by piece I could do that over time.
I understand you're sentiments with a turboed car it tends to muffle exhaust sound but this car with a turbo would run no silencers so it will actually act as I silencer should i turbo. However, N/A always has those sweeter revs and lumpy idle.
You're right with this below..
Personally I think you should just build a not-too-extravagant small block Ford for now, finish the car, suspension, etc, and drive it. Then you’ll see what it needs, build up another engine as you have time, when and if you get bored with the power. There is much more joy in having a reliable car and actually using the car, than saving up for exotic speed parts and a car on jack stands. But whatever you do, please keep us updated, everyone here enjoys a good build thread.
I agree. Its what ZA said right in the beginning
ofcourse boys will be boys wanting more power.
This still leaves me with my dilemma though of cost vs power vs durability. However, I think I forgot to keep the bigger build in mind and I focused too much on the engine alone. Maybe if I was just building an engine but I'm building an entire car so as you say there are other costs involved, but since the engine will form the heart of my build Im focusing on it first so I know where Im going..
I need to consider now though what to do about the engine and I would like to speak to the guys you mentioned. If anyone has any suggestions to post I am still open to ideas..
Thanks for the response Indiana! I will definitely keep posting the build