SA vs US market

[WCC]

Gents, I would love to hear your thoughts on this. I spoke with a few friends in the US, all lovers of good old American Muscle and they all said the market in the US has taken a beating in the last year or so, after a stellar year in 2015. However, when I look at SA the inverse is apparent. Of course, I realize it must be supply and demand, but are the cars really selling for what they are advertised locally? In addition, the cars in the US are influenced by originality which dictates the price and the premium. Over here, it just seems that the price goes up with a very vague, if any, reference to the fact that the car is not original by a long shot.
I fully appreciate the fact that it cost a lot of money to restore a car and what you invest is often not recouped and more so if it is not as per the original spec. As such, I believe there are few really original examples to choose from in SA, so what you pay for is more related to a lifestyle investment than a classic car collectability investment.
Or am I smoking my socks?

[IndianaJones]

WCC, me and numerous other members have discussed topics along these lines every so often, and I'm still of the stance, that classic cars in a lot of cases are advertised with a total disregard of any norm, its old, thus its worth gold. But then again, with the buying power of the Rand dwindling, it's difficult to price anything appropriately these days.

Just see...
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21630
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18601

...are the cars really selling for what they are advertised locally?

Yes, and no. For different reasons. Some models are worth the asking prices, and sometimes the seller get offered peanuts, and accepts it. Some people buy without considering the price, I see it, I like it, gotta have it, and others actually look at what value it offers.

so what you pay for is more related to a lifestyle investment than a classic car collectability investment.

This is true for some sales, buying into the lifestyle, I would think it is especially true on the higher end cars. And the dealers count on it, market at people with a lot of disposable income, and not a lot of free time, to do diligence and research what they are actually buying.

[jlebenon]

You are right and wrong ... Our market is split in 3 .. The guys that collect/buy/sell original top end cars for investment , then there's guys that will spend good money on decent cars but aren't too worried about originality etc as long the cars are in a nice drive able condition and then there's guys who have no fucken clue and either buy any shit for the wrong price or they try sell any shit for the wrong price .... So for instance when the 1959 very rare pristine beetle sells for 280k the guy at the other end advertises his 1972 beetle with fiberglass split rear window for 110k and that's where the fuckup comes in ... The market has definitely slowed as money becomes s bit tight again and the same cars being turned over and over ....

[ZA Perana]

You are right and wrong ... Our market is split in 3 .. The guys that collect/buy/sell original top end cars for investment , then there's guys that will spend good money on decent cars but aren't too worried about originality etc as long the cars are in a nice drive able condition and then there's guys who have no fucken clue and either buy any shit for the wrong price or they try sell any shit for the wrong price .... So for instance when the 1959 very rare pristine beetle sells for 280k the guy at the other end advertises his 1972 beetle with fiberglass split rear window for 110k and that's where the fuckup comes in ... The market has definitely slowed as money becomes s bit tight again and the same cars being turned over and over ....

Totally correct in my opinion.

[Burnthosetyres]

Almost the same story with a clean original fastback being sold then Frikkie askes same price for his Coup with M3 side Skirts..... whahaahahaaha

[Gavin RS]

If you can negotiate a deal and both parties are happy then great. Willing buyer willing seller.

I agree with the above posts, things have got out of hand on a lot of classic values in SA as every tom dick harry and his dog think they have a national treasure. Some weird things going on with values in SA.

I have to deal with these types everyday and recently I have passed up actually doing a valuation certificate on certain cars as I wont put my name on anything if I don't agree with values.

I recently passed up doing a valuation for insurance on a so called collector car. value to be close to R700k . when I got the details the car turned out to be a 2005-2006 Chrysler 300C that was modified and had a sound system over R100k . I gave that a miss for sure.


SO!! personal tastes if you have the money. A wealthy guy in Europe has had his 1986 Rover Vitesse fully restored by Bart Holland restoration company in the Netherlands. A top notch company and the car is now for sale at over GBP 100k. most of the club guys in the UK say it does not make sense financially and the guy is mad etc etc but the owner has no shortage of money and wanted his car to be the best in the world, his choice and money.

[Maverick]

Other day I saw a 61 Thunderbird being advertised for R950k.

Quick search showed that you can buy a good one anything from $10k to $18k for a mint one in the USA.

The madness over old cars in SA is not sustainable and if something like the above gets sold it's only to someone that is clueless and totally idiotic with money.

A 61 model can easily be imported and even if the landed rate ends up being 3 times the price in the USA, you would still end up spending R250k less for the car landed here than the one for sale for R950k.

Its totally nonsensical what is currently going on here.

[Scar]

The international investment market for classic cars has most certainly slowed if one looks at the indexes released by HAGI, down year on year.

The SA market I think is different though. There seems to be more and more activity and interest in classic cars, although this is just anecdotal. The guys doing the valuations and restorations would obviously know better as evidenced by the demand for the work they do. Perhaps we are just playing catch up to places like the States. Some prices asked for cars for sale are optimistic, but then again there are those that are very reasonable.

Either way, the more activity, the more people involved, the busier the shows etc the better off all of us that enjoy cars are!

[Gavin RS]

At the end of last year the UK released a statistic for the first time on the classic / collectible market. It has been done by financial experts as well as auditing companies as well as the Receiver. It has take a while to actually work out the value to the UK economy etc.
the general public was approached to give input as well.

For many years the classic scene has come under fire from all the Liberal Bunny huggers and so called emissions experts etc to have old cars banned from the roads as they pollute badly and effect global warming etc.

Well results came out and in the UK alone the industry is a GBP 5.5 Billion industry and employs over 370000 people. there are over 1 million classic cars in ownership with a value in the multi Billions and from 2015 to 2016 the industry grew a further 17%

Companies doing restorations, maintenance as well as the training of craftsman etc all add to this large industry. over 23million people voted to keep classic in roadworthy condition and to drive them often. So a big "UP YOURS" to all the haters and Bunny huggers out there as emission levels are so low for classics that a field with a few thousand cattle is worse on emissions for global warming

Now how large is this industry if you include JUST USA,Canada Germany, Italy, Scandinavia, Australia.

[WCC]

Great comments guys and thanks for the insights.
Imagine the possibilities for job creation and additional revenue (so 'desperately' needed and hopefully not squandered away like the rest of the Government pot) if we can freely import classics.
If there were more classic cars available in SA, I think the crazy prices will sort themselves out.