Capri XL-R 3000GT

Any discussions about the history of the road going cars
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zahistorics
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Re: Capri XL-R 3000GT

Post by zahistorics » Sat 17 May 2008, 13:10

kiwicapri wrote:the only thing suspect is your own car-58 could not have been produced in October. for a start, there is no way BG would have been able to produce 58 or so cars in one month, October being the begining, and these cars were built in the UK 3 moths earlier.Do you have a SVO tag? Bet you don't know what that is, or how to determine when the car arrived from the UK, and then into BG,and for the second, i have documented proof that the car is origonal, and was not from Cape Town.Third, but not least, I started out seeking information, and shareing my years of restoration knowledge, in Capris, and have years and years of ford factory parts books, service bulitons, magzine articles and actualy research things before i make assumptions.

If you would like to conatct me off line, i can provide you with a spread sheet of the numbers I have collected, relivant or not. :D
Wayne:

Capris in South Africa, like virtually every car on sale at the time, would have been buiilt in South Africa, initially from partial CKD kits, then with increasing amounts of locally produced parts.

Other than perhaps a few pilot cars, we would not have imported European built cars.

In general local legislation made it very difficult bring in fully assembled cars, although it does seem that Ford SA were good at finding ways of getting fully cars into South Africa (100 Mk1 RS Escorts for exmple, complete with SVO plates that became the first 100 Escort Peranas)

I'm not sure whern Capris went on general sale in South Africa. (Jacques, Lino can you have a dig in your CAR mags?). Basil Green certainly had his hands on Capris very early on. He built the Z181 race car in late 1969. He had built at least 11 V6 Capri Peranas by December 1969. I'm not yet sure of when V8s were started, but certaily he was up to 20 V8's by August 1970, and in the thirties by October 1970. Motoring Mirror road tested a V8 prototype in January 1970.

SVO plate on a Capri is interesting - my sample is very small, but I have only ever seen one Perana V8 that may have been an SVO.

Everyone: I don't think anomalies in numbering shoud be discussed in public forums - If you think you see something odd, PM or email each other.

Firenza GT

Re: Capri XL-R 3000GT

Post by Firenza GT » Sat 17 May 2008, 15:57

Point here is that IF (not saying it is) there is a descreptancy with the NZ Capri, be it the plate was lost and remade or whatever and the owner was not told about that, then it should'nt be an issue spoken about here. If it was me I'd want to ask the seller again about this. I would also want to tell you out there what happened to me so you can be aware as a fellow enthiusiast. Having no idea how that car was sent to NZ or where it came from in ZA I can't say. Was it a dealer or private person? It would be nice to know if it indeed is a case of some snag with regards the authenticy of the car be it even just a plate that has the wrong date. the issue is'nt even if it was a replica but rather sold under pretences of original that goes for anything not specifically refering to this car.

This people as much as I am passionate about classics turned against just handing everything out like there is no tommorow. Besdies the crookery that goes on there are also other factors with regards especially detailed information databases should they get into wrong hands.

Maybe a year ago I could have for example spotted a faked Can Am just over the phone not even seeing it. Now I'd have to be left alone with the car for some time as this sort of thing has become complicated. Be it just to prove for example that just the shell maybe was an original. Every time a number is made public, who ever intends crooking such a car elimiates one number as an option. The less the information as such out there the easier it will be to catch a crook out. This is it, this has shifted from what was a hobby to a lucerative bussiness under the pretences of enthiusiast. I don't want to know another persons car details as long as I know what I have I'm happy. Be it you meet up with another Perana or Can Am owner then we can exchange notes and meet up some other time again.

Back to the NZ Capri, if the plate mentioned dated 12 70 is correct then mine is most [probably incorrect. My plate has never been off the car the car has never been stripped besides sundry exterior stuff through the years. The number is irrelevent I have no reason to try discretid any others car. What I do have a pain with is that I would like to know IF there is a discreptancy so I be able to identify the person for my own good as that person just gets crossed off your list of "guests". They don't belong here, there is lots of scope out there in the corporate world of motoring new cars and all that.

I can tell you about another one that went to Aus that had an incorrect date which under further investigation was found to be cloned way back when these cars were not as valuable as authentic originals. This car was sort of said that the BG stamped motor had got lost through time which can happen. When checked it was evident that the plate was something that was not. The plate which could have been real it looked real but also looked tampered with.

The red Capri recently sold in Cape Town same thing. Has a BG motor, correctly dated/numbered plate from what we think is correct. It seems a real plate probably off a scrapped car, but none of the three the chasis, the plate nor the motor have any connection.

Don't get me wrong anybody this is not saying anything is wrong, but right here chances are good there will be an explaination as to why there is a discreptancy between the build dates of mine, Jacques and the 12 70 car mentioned. If nothing is wrong even better then maybe there was some mix up at BG's factory orbe it the plate stamper had a hangover or something.

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Re: Capri XL-R 3000GT

Post by ZA Perana » Sat 17 May 2008, 17:30

alvin chetty wrote:Guys, the both of you seem to have valuable knowledge on the perana and i am trying to learn from what the both are saying. but please leave the sarcasm out cos it dosent make the topic more informative. so if you both can continue with you opinions and facts then we that do not know so much can have a better understanding of what we have..

quick question... my car is BG0200 and when i bought it, it came with a C4 auto. how can i establish if this was the original box as i would like to make mine into a manual.
No sarcasm was intended in my part just found the numbering odd, sure there is an explanation of some variety but at this stage we can but speculate.
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Firenza GT

Re: Capri XL-R 3000GT

Post by Firenza GT » Sat 17 May 2008, 18:15

Just thinking was that car not sold from an exported out Pretoria way ? Somehow the number rings as having seen it advertised a few years ago.

kiwicapri
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Re: Capri XL-R 3000GT

Post by kiwicapri » Sat 17 May 2008, 23:06

Hi Alvin.

Point taken!

The tags, including the SVO tag, attached to the cross member, on the floor, under the drivers seat, is the one tag, that ties up all loos ends.on this tag, amaongs other things, BG0200, will have a serial number , that matches the serial number on the FSA (Ford South Africa) tag. Also, on the FSA tag, there is two letters 3rd in on the top row, this is when the CKD shell was produced in the UK, before shipping.

the SVO tag will have a notation such as F/S or Auto, or perhaps A.Some i have seen have a big "M". If it was a manual to start with, and a lot were, then there will be an extra 4 holes in the fire wall, just beside where te main dash loom comes out into the engine bay on the drivers side.

C4, was the std auto trans.There should be a tag attached, with sereral numbers, with gaps between them. Also the casting numbers. if you can find them, then doo a google search, "Mustang C4 ID".

I have aslo got a copy of a magazine article, dated January 1971 where they did a road test on thi mighty little car.It quite clearly states that all "5" "R" pack options were available as optional extras and were available at the time of testing. Considering they did not have instant desk top pblishing in 1970/71, the test would have taken place, at least 1-2 months prior to going to print. Even today, it takes almost 6 weeks, from test, edit to print and on the news stands.

The other fact is, is that the quarts iodine driving lights, made by WIPAC, were available in the UK from about 1964, on Cortina's, Zephyrs, and numerous other cars.The only diffrence, is the mounting bracket. These lights were discontinued in the UK in 1972, in favour of the Lucas Square 8.Also used in the Shelby Mustang, 1970, interestingly enough.All Australian cars had them as an option, from 1969.

In terms of what and what was not a correct build date, is a bit errtic.It seems that most Perana capris, have a 3 month gap betwen CKD manufacture in the UK, and the Build date in ZA. That is, the code on one plate, is 3 months earlier than the BG build date. He also needed to build 100 cars, by the end of December 1970, to homoligate them for the 71 season. If you do the math, and the earliest build date we have on register, that i can find, is October 1970 #26, and the highest I can find is #92 December 1970, then he must have been working around the clock, with a fully automated work shop. I think (and this is just a theory)what actualy happened, is they cheated, as did a lot of factories then, and the numbers were on paper, stamped, but rolled out latter.

Articles atate that they were building at a rate of 4-5 cars a week. the above would suggest that they were infact building 7-8? I think a bit stretched, for a work shop.remember, this was done in his workshop, not a rolling assembly line.

Anyway, my thgoughts, ad would welcome any other input, in solving the mystery.

Regards

Wayne

Firenza GT

Re: Capri XL-R 3000GT

Post by Firenza GT » Sat 17 May 2008, 23:20

Reading stuff here I hardly had a clue about so easy is it to catch a sucker out is'nt it? Very interesting.

Did you say your BG plate was stamped 12/70 not sure if that was what you mean't ? Would the Ford build dates be aprox 3 months earlier dated than the BG tag build dates?

Well there's another tip for a hacker if it is so. There is just one problem with forums in that once you put it out there it is there for all the genuine guys as well as the hackers. A hacker can get this info anyway I suppose but not without a bit of effort or chance of being caught out.

kiwicapri
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Re: Capri XL-R 3000GT

Post by kiwicapri » Sun 18 May 2008, 00:52

All points taken.i guess we will never realy know, and yes production dates etc, may have been eratic, even to the point, as you or someone pointed out, some drunck with a set of stamps, miss stamped a few. All i know, is the dates, numbers etc,modifications, block casting numbers and extras on this particular car, all stack up. Even the authorities in ZA, seemed to thinks so.

Thank you all for your input.

Wayne

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Re: Capri XL-R 3000GT

Post by V8GFISH » Sun 18 May 2008, 05:41

Hi guys,

HSV in Oz made a car called the VN SS GRP A (back in 92 i think it was) and originally they were going to make something like about 500 of these things but only ended up making aprox 302. (I'll have to double check figures if needed, bad memory) :roll:

Aparrantly with some of the tags on a few cars the number exceded 302 as the factory randomly tagged the cars so the factory gave the customers the option to change the tags or leave them on the cars, quite a few customers declined the offer as thats how it came out so thats what they wanted to keep for original sake.

To this day there are a few tagged that are greater than 302, but only 302 were made

Could be the same? :? Hope this helps? :)
Cheers, Daz
72 Capri Perana
www.perthcapri.com

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21

Firenza GT

Re: Capri XL-R 3000GT

Post by Firenza GT » Sun 18 May 2008, 09:04

With you Daz that sort of thing can and will happen as human is not perfect and does fail.

However, the way I see this sort of thing is that it can swing in favour of a hacker or is normally the main point of call to justify a mysterious situation. Benifit of the doubt. That is not an excuse anymore really it is not as the Net is so damn powerfull all those vast distances you can't get to so as to find something else has been eliminated. You can now have information relevent to a vehicle known by a person that emigrated and normally the thing is the person (with vital information) is no longer around meanwhile he is maybe even reading the topic or the guy lives down the road from somebody that is. With the Net now chances are good the information is at most 10 - 20 metres away from you from your garage to where you computer is positioned in the house.

(Forget about this car for a moment this is a seperate point I wish to make)

When many locals restore cars here I have noticed they strip them bare and in most cases there is fine detail, unique detail that is lost due to lack of knowledge or be it reserach on a car. The cars get put together semi customised in the end hence you see what you do with a lot of confused originals here. Some cars are stripped to the metal maybe even dipped. The last trace of a shell's "birth mark wiped out. All our cars that have been sprayed a few times for example I can go to each one and prove the original colour of which all are unique to that specific run of homologation specials of the time. The Capri as I read now I would have been caught out big time for example as every day I heard about these little BG things. It is resprayed but only once and paint lifted in places and nowhere on the car can any colour be seen except the factory primer and that Daytona yellow think it's called.

In this day and age I will never remove all the paint of a car be it large pieces flattened down to just skimming on the original outer layer and factory primer. When a person does that you document it be it show people that are firm in character or how ever. So that without a doubt this mysterious thing does not come back to haunt the car.

That is one point for the actual shell as plates can just be carefully transfered . The other is to trace the car back step by step and now it is very easy with forums such as these. These days it's difficult to trust anyone because this has turned into a full on money mess hence I for one have lost my passion for historics. If you want to know something you will know it if you make a point to persue your passion and you are here for the right reasons or lets say not just for the cash or image for the cash. There is no inbetween for a real true classic car enthiusiast I mean the Nerd type that has no sense of the cash aspect of it. It's either right or it's wrong the reason being is that my interest in classics has stretched from childhood dreamsy through my life buying magazines, going places and doing everything the classic motor-enthiusiast would do as an intense aprenticeship and then actually getting something you set out to get for your own reason and not that of others of cash.

Until just recently when I realised this was a royal circus with hackers, swindlers and the like that opinion has changed when I leave my gate. Within my gates, space or with people I trust I try think as I would no cash it's just about the actual classic. The heritage and the joys of having it. These days when I leave that space it's cash first and by chance if one does walk into another classic-nerd or trusted friend it's classics without cashtalk. Very unfortunate but that is just being blunt about the matter of fact and there is then less miss-understanding. Hence I cannot any longer say my interest level in classics is pure anymore it's split to keep up with the times and could very well tip over completely as a capital investment as seems the norm these days.

That goes for the racing side too even though I am not a racer I have a few boxes full of developed old style photo's of my travel's since school days as testemony to the bit I can relate to. What I did'nt see or know I made a plan and went out and bought boxes of old magazine to create a reference archive. And still I don't know it all hence for everything today you got to rip it apart to the core to believe it as this intensity of interest does not seem common ground in ZA generally.

This is abit off the point but just trying to explain you can know whatever if you want to know it whatever it is be it a racing detail or a Vin plate detail..

Back to the Capri Perana's, does anyone know if that yellow was unique to the Perana or were there other models with that paint used ? The Peri-Peri as well ? there is you first point of call hence as I said earlier to check a cars authenticy I would have to be left alone with a car for enough time to go through it inch by inch although obviously one cannot just go sanding down peoples cars. You see if somebody handed me a 3 litre shell it it no big deal for me as a non mechanically qualified person to exactly transfer everything from our Perana to the other shell in fact unless I could have every single trace of the old paint cleaned I'm almost convinced I'd be able to crook such a car. That thing Wayne mentioned about eh 4 holes for example that detail now needs to be included by a faker because now I know it too. You focus on small detail which normally disrupts the purist to the extent it's a 5-0-50 situation. Just a few years ago this sort of thing was done more wrecklessly or not that intense as there is now more info available.

Which again I keep going back to the back-step method to verify a cars status. Sombody saw something somewhere some day. The information is there if you really want to know it. For me Wayne, if I had that situation with my tag dated 10/70 which it cannot be for my Capri, I'd go after the reason to the last resource and if I have been crooked I'd tell you guys who crooked me. If it was the case of just the plate gone missing and a replicated place was made and they got the date wrong I'd still be annoyed as they can rather say so than create confusion not just for a buyer but in this case it basically throws the whole build date sequence out. If I had found my car to be faked today I would'nt be too bothered as it would be the most acurate replica I have ever seen plus I did'nt pay R 300 000 for it if you know what I mean. But if I had bought an XU1 Torana faked from Aus for R 300 000 that's got a questionable point of fact, you can bet I'd go after the truth or factual explaination.

Nobody reading this should get annoyed except if you a hacker or intending to pull such a move. This by the way is just my opinion it has worked 110% for me spot on to this day. Except the cash thing I woke up very late about that side of classics. If this sort of mindset is generally accepted a hacker will maybe think twice and venture off into some other trade be it selling counterfeit takkies or something like that.

kiwicapri
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Re: Capri XL-R 3000GT

Post by kiwicapri » Sun 18 May 2008, 10:56

Hi.

Thanks for the reply to the last thread.

i would like to apoligise to all who may think i am just another hakker, but my intentions are above board.

Firstly, the car i have, was Peri peri Red, evedent by he paint under the 3 coats i have carfulyy taken off. it has also at some stage had a bad prang, and is full of bog.I have been an enthusiast, and probably a bit of a nerd, when it comes to getting things just right. i also understand about over restoration, and have seen cars such as shelby mustangs, have all the rough edges fixed up, as they should not be.

I have owed the following: 1970 GTXLR 3.0 Auto, 1971 GTxlr Manual, 1972 South african 1600GT(fooishly let it go), a 1972 Australian 3.0GT auto, of which only 163 were built,with a very rare, black vinal roof(a rare option Australia), and Currently have a 1971 Australian 3.0GT that has undergone a full restoration, to as exact factory spec as posible.I have grown up around restorations of Cars and motor cyles all my life, or as far as I can remember, as my farther was a real, self taught, fanatic about doing things right the first time.My in tentions were no more, than to get assistance for my next project, wich is going to take a hell of a lot oftime, and will not be a cheque book resto.Waht is the point,if you can not get your hands dirty doing it. thatis half the fun.

I believe you will find the answer to the paint colurs. if you do agoogle search for 1970 Ford Mustang/fairline PPG colour chips. If you would like a copy, please contact me off line.

Thank you all, and sorry if i up set a few members.

Wayne

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